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Episode 47: Leading Through Organizational Shift

March 13, 2018

Episode 47: Leading Through Organizational Shift

Serving on staff as a millennial for nearly a decade in the same church isn’t a combo you hear too often. Jason is a worship pastor and leader who has experienced several leadership seasons “the hard way” and admits that it’s formed him in both positive and negative ways. Listen along as he offers staffers in the thick of organizational transition some wise suggestions for how to thrive.

EPISODE RESOURCES

GO DEEP INTO THE DIMES DROPPED, CONNECT WITH THE SPEAKER, AND CHECK OUT THE LINKS & RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE:

  1. www.southwestchurch.com
  2. Facebook: @SouthwestChurchCV
  3. Instagram: @southwestchurch

Episode Quotable

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Episode 47 Transcript

Mingo Palacios:

Hello and welcome to the PD Podcast where we dialogue with some of today’s most insightful ministry leaders on topics relevant to the next generation. I’m Mingo Palacios, your host and pastor of evangelism and culture at Saddleback Church. Every episode you’ll meet a future focus leader who’s changing the face of ministry from millennials by simply observing the past. It’s our hope that these conversations challenge you to dream bigger, lead better, and intentionally make time to honor those who let us stand on their shoulders. Thanks for joining us.

Mingo Palacios:

Welcome to the Purpose Driven Church Podcast where we sit down with leaders in and around the church to discuss current trends and challenges and how the five purposes of the local church matter today, more than ever. What’s up everybody? Welcome to the Purpose Driven Podcast. My name is Mingo and I am your host here and today I’m in studio with Jason Schafer. We’re actually sitting in the air stream, the 1964 airstream that we flipped just a few days ago and now we’re getting to like reap the benefits of having a full fledged remote mobile studio so that we can bring conference conversations direct to our listeners, which I love so much. I said it earlier that we are killing conference FOMO, one great episode at a time. Today we’ve got this, what I think is going to be a really great conversation for people who have been in ministry through seasons that they did not expect to be in and Jason as the lead worship pastor here in just shy of a decade, you have called Southwest Church your home.

Jason Schafer:

That’s right.

Mingo Palacios:

And in that time the Lord has been actively maturing and changing and developing this staff, which would include actively changing, maturing, and developing you as a leader.

Jason Schafer:

Absolutely.

Mingo Palacios:

And today we’re going to talk about what it looks like to live and lead through change. What a poignant topic for so many emerging leaders who enter ministry with one perception and quickly figure out that nothing remains the same. Right? That’s right. Bring us through a little bit of the journey as you started nine years ago. Did you start as a worship pastor nine years ago?

Jason Schafer:

Yes, nine years ago, they had like a different styles of worship, kind of an approach and there was three different venues and I was hired to do the overdrive style venue, which was something I had done before. And so that’s how I got here working for a different lead worship pastor. We had like horns and choirs and different iterations of worship styles in the same sanctuary service to service. So just kind of frankly a nightmare situation for any worship leader.

Mingo Palacios:

What you’re describing, it’s like ok yeah here we go. Horns and hip hop and a bell section.

Jason Schafer:

We definitely went there and I jumped right into it. We were actually under another senior pastor’s leadership at that time and he only was here for about two years for my first stint here.

Mingo Palacios:

How old were you when you rolled in?

Jason Schafer:

Oh, let’s see. So that would make me about 28 when I first came around.

Mingo Palacios:

Ok so young, green.

Jason Schafer:

Young, married, no kids yet. And hopping into this church environment.

Mingo Palacios:

When you think back to that season, describe the anticipation of becoming a player inside of a staff like Southwest. Southwest is a legacy church, you know, you’re talking over four decades of a presence in this valley and now you have a baton in your hand to be one of the leaders. I’m assuming you’re thinking this is the beginning of an amazing run.

Jason Schafer:

I’m thinking about relationship with senior pastor. Cooperation, collaboration with other worship guys and all those kinds of things. And what I walked into was the tail end of a pretty awesome recovery for this church from a moral failure of a previous senior pastor. So that guy had restored the reputation of this church and paid off a ton of debt, really awesome pastor but it wasn’t the kind of guy that knew what to do after that. And he came to this decision that he was through with his time leading here. And so we went on a pastoral search. I’ll fast forward through all that because that’s even six years ago. And so I went, I’ve been through to pastoral changes here at this church since that time.

Mingo Palacios:

That seems like you, I mean you would have like varsity wings as a pastor.

Jason Schafer:

The purple heart.

Mingo Palacios:

Purple heart medal of honor because I mean, what does that mean do to the… I mean, my assumption is that there’s massive turnover when there is an absence of vision and a central leader. But you were telling me some stories of how other churches in a season when you are lacking a senior leader came in and really walked alongside of you guys.

Jason Schafer:

Yeah. And at that period of time I was such a green leader that I was just kind of watching it all unfold and things shifted. And whenever that happens, the music becomes a lot more important because there’s no regular speaker on a big regular.

Mingo Palacios:

You’re the anchor.

Jason Schafer:

The most seen person on staff, whether I had the authority for it or the gifting for it. I was the guy that was singing on Sunday, so I definitely was the most seen. I remember that time as being really chaotic and there was probably about a 40 percent shift in staff and I was just kind of a last man standing. So that would be when I became like the senior most worship leader. And then we had another stint with another leader that became just not the right fit for this organization. It was organizational values and his leadership values were not aligned with one another. And you can look it up on the Internet and find out all about that.

Mingo Palacios:

Oh, well documented.

Jason Schafer:

Yeah, we had protesters, we had haters and that’s the one where I was maybe hip enough to realize what was going on around me.

Mingo Palacios:

Well it seems like in a second round you start to identify some themes.

Jason Schafer:

Unfortunately, it took me twice to really realize the opportunities that lie in front of me to lead and also just those kinds of shifts in how to interact with them.

Mingo Palacios:

So unpack for me this, because our listeners are hearing the story for the first time. I’m hearing this story for the first time. Were you inside of somebody’s ecosystem were you inside of a team when you went through that first round of chaos?

Jason Schafer:

Yes.

Mingo Palacios:

And then if somebody’s listening to this and they themselves go, Ooh, what Jason’s talking about, I feel like I actually might be in that turbulence right now. What are some of the things that sustained you, that kept you from going out if it was opportunistic? I know several leaders who when things go crazy above their head, they take the cue and they roll, you know?

Jason Schafer:

I think it’s definitely that moment. Like, are you going to put up, are you going to shut up? Like, what are you going to do? And I remember being asked to be on the pastoral search committee on that first round. So I’m kind of a peon worship leader guy inside of the organization and the organization’s changing all around me. I don’t know where I fit in and no one’s really called my phone to say, how about coming to this church or how long you gonna stay after this is all how no one had called my phone at that point in time, but they asked me would you sit on the pastoral search team, which we had like a lay pastor search team situation here.

Mingo Palacios:

Which probably felt like oh whoa my opinion really matters here.

Jason Schafer:

And so I prayed about it, I felt peace about it and I went with it and I remember regretting that decision several times-

Mingo Palacios:

No way.

Jason Schafer:

at least in the moment because I was just like, dang it, if it wasn’t for that, I would be out of here

Mingo Palacios:

Because you were hooked.

Jason Schafer:

I’d been real public about that at this point. Basically had a hand cuff to my desk at that point without commitment where everything else just felt like nobody wants me here. I’m just like a showpiece to do what needs to be done that anybody could do. I really felt like a nobody in that time. That was a hard season.

Mingo Palacios:

What a killer confession though, especially for people who like go, man, this could be my time to shine, but you’re thinking, man, like-

Jason Schafer:

I’m hanging on for dear life.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah there’s zero consistency and I’m watching probably my peers make their way off to better opportunities.

Jason Schafer:

Some of whom were doing better inside of the order organization, you know, and in my flesh I could maybe say I was jealous or frustrated. In my personal life I’d become a father that year. I knocked off a bucket list item where I was training for an ironman. I did my first ironman that year and there’s a lot going on inside and outside of that. And I was definitely just kind of hanging on.

Mingo Palacios:

So for the leader that’s in the turbulence.

Jason Schafer:

As far as advice, I’d say I put up and I said, I’m going to do this commitment. And I follow through my commitment. I look back today and say I’m glad I did that. Because if I had bailed on my commitment and that’s an integrity issue for me. If I hadn’t made a commitment, if I hadn’t made any decision, I would’ve been just as fluid and floosie as anybody else, and I could’ve ended up anywhere and just trading one set of problems for the other. So at the end of the day, I’m really glad I made that commitment because it’s what I could hang on to through the turmoil. So what is it that’s keeping you at your church? Pick one. And if there ain’t nothing, if you don’t have peace about a single thing of it, then yeah, you ought to to scope out what’s going on outside of your church. But if there’s anything to stay for that you believe God sent you as a piece of that process, then let that be the commitment that handcuffs you to your desk through the other turmoil.

Mingo Palacios:

I just love the way you put that because it’s not that you’re committing to the whole thing, like the whole sandwich or the whole pie. You’re just going where God has me in particular and the invitation that I had in the commitment that I was being asked to make, that’s what kept me here. It wasn’t a holistic-

Jason Schafer:

It really was. And you don’t have control over all of that. So to even try and like be like, I’m coming to the whole of it. You will be so frustrated. It’s OK if it doesn’t all go your way.

Mingo Palacios:

Yes dude speak that to some people. Yeah because I think we try to idealize our existence inside of the organization and go, I’ll be a pillar amongst the chaos and I’ll help people navigate in the desert for seven years. You know, your honesty there is so needed because I think all too many times we try to paint a very pretty picture of a very messy process. Ministry is so messy because it’s human and it’s even more messy times a hundred when it’s the leadership that is in chaos or as in strife or is in descent, you know? So that’s you young leader, right? But then there’s a maturing that happens as you’ve committed to the process. And now on the back end, right, as you’ve rolled through nine years, you guys had a very unique situation where you went 18 months without a senior pastor. Most churches I feel like would fold under the absence of that kind of vision and leadership. What was it inside of Southwest, or who were the components or what kept you? God’s grace obviously. But there is something that has to be said about a church that makes it like you had said a growth came.

Jason Schafer:

Yes.

Mingo Palacios:

Unpack that for me.

Jason Schafer:

So what we’re sitting on here in this trailer is a property where we’ve seen favor of God unprecedentedly so, undeservedly so, unbelievable amounts of favor. I don’t know why this church didn’t collapse in any of its numerous pastoralships. It doesn’t make sense, but it’s the same as saying, I don’t know why Israel made it through all of their changes-

Mingo Palacios:

Yes great parallel.

Jason Schafer:

Going in and out of captivity, but always under the banner of love and favor of God. And so in a lot of ways, I feel like Israel, both in having gone through a lot and also it’s just literally standing on miracles, standing on favor. That having been said, practically tangibly for the leaders that are looking for like, what do I do because I’m about to see some of this in my church? Find friends, find partners. And for us it was bayside side who’s hosting the Thrive conference that we’re a part of today. So Ray Johnson, who is one of the senior pastors at Bayside and Jack Hamilton who is an executive pastor from high desert church in Victorville, California. Amazing gentlemen had agreed in their senior leadership, they are able to be pretty flexible and for whatever reason they had a heart for us or a relationship or two with one of our staff members that just said we can’t let this happen to God’s church. And so they agreed to be our part time interim pastors, both of them.

Mingo Palacios:

And they’re not like not busy people.

Jason Schafer:

They’re very busy people but they took us under their wing and Ray would speak once a month and Jack and Ray together with some of our staff, worked to bring in some pretty a-list speakers. So we did see a really great speaking talent, so all of a sudden I am the worship pastor of a church that’s almost a conference center for mega church pastors

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah because they’re all circuiting through.

Jason Schafer:

And they’re all literally just coming in and out of our doors. So some of our conference speakers that you’re going to see this weekend, like Albert Tate or Bob Goff, they end up coming in. Louis Rodriguez or sorry, Sammy Rodriguez and Luis Palau came in at one point. I mean it was an unbelievable guest list and I’m just that guy, like how am I getting to lead? How am I leading worship?

Mingo Palacios:

What an amazing opportunity.

Jason Schafer:

Because I literally stepped into like a winning lottery ticket after being feeling beat on and handcuffed to a desk season. Now I’m sitting here, I’m the conference worship pastor for the greatest conference on earth that never ends. It happens every weekend and that’s literally what happened at this place. I’m getting to sit under the mantle of leadership of Bayside and Ray Johnston was fantastic. There was a point in time where the Purpose Driven conference in Saddleback, our friends over there decided, we can’t let that happen to God’s church. They must be in turmoil. And shortly after our previous pastor had left, they said, you guys need to be a Purpose Driven conference and they actually put us up at the ranch and they took care of all the registration and they said, bring your wives and we all did. We come out and we just got blessed and we needed that. We needed that rest and relaxation. We needed someone to say, ‘we’re sorry’. We needed someone to put their arms around us. We needed someone to just talk to and say the ridiculous things that were in our heads to cuss at the situation to get lost in just anger and depression over it. And I mean literally when this bomb hit, not only did our senior pastor leave, but our speaking pastor left, who was my boss at the time. I had just bought a house and started renovating it. So I was sitting in a kitchen that was down to studs with two foster babies that made me a very local person. I can’t really move very quickly with foster kids and here I am and the bottom falls out.

Mingo Palacios:

Seemingly.

Jason Schafer:

I don’t know that I’ve ever been so vulnerable in all my life. But the safety net was influential and powerful relationships people that really care about the church. Yeah.

Mingo Palacios:

What I, what I think of is, you know, the opposite of that are churches that are so caught up in their own ideas and churches that are so caught up in their own programs and their own vision for themselves that they never take the time to really like to relate and invest laterally. Like, who’s just down the block, who’s on the other side of town? Who are the people that I grew up doing ministry with that I no longer check in with who probably have great positions of either influence or just impact, you know, in other cities? But because we’ve come so mono focused, a lot of times we throw the relationship potential away because we’re so obsessive about what we’ve got going on in our own little petri dish. And clearly your guys’ existence is because the pastors that reached out to you, both Saddleback in Bayside and the church in high desert, they understood there’s value in the relational equity even if it’s not going to benefit you personally. I remember talking to ray when he came to the ranch and I said, you know, are you guys gonna? Are you going to turn Southwest into a Bayside Church? Because there’s some projects that they do where it’s like a Bayside church. And he goes, nope, that church, that church has existed in, it will exist. It does not need Bayside’s name on it. We were just there as a catalyst to make sure it made it to the point where it was going to get back to the place that needed to be. And that was such a strong statement to me from a senior leader who easily could have done the acquisition game and put another campus on the board for their big church. But I love that a leader insightfully looks at an organization that says that we’ve got more laps to run on this track.

Jason Schafer:

Unprecedentedly so. I’ve just witnessed a lot of miracles daily and he is one of them. He’s with the spirit of God at his side, just so open handed about how much he gave to this place without expecting anything to come of it except the Kingdom of God growing.

Mingo Palacios:

I want to be a leader like that.

Jason Schafer:

Absolutely.

Mingo Palacios:

Where you make it less about you and your brand, you make it more about what’s happening through that space. Whether or not your name is on it. That’s unreal. That’s the kind of leader I think is the reason why so many people are here at Thrive conference studying Bayside and studying Southwest as a case for how Bayside has paid deeply into the leaders that are inside the space. Whether or not key indicator here, they’re senior leadership or not. Right?

Jason Schafer:

That’s right.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s the big, I think caveat. We’re at Southwest and because we’ve got a Purpose Driven Church coming back up in June. There are a lot of teams who sometimes think, you know what, we’ll just work through. We’re just going to keep working despite the mess instead of retreat together or instead of getting away and hearing from another perspective, unpack for our listeners, give them a reason or two why it’s so important or valuable to get into somebody else’s ecosystem.

Jason Schafer:

I’ll just say there’s never a good time to leave what you’ve got going on at home. It seems like impossible to pick the day, but just go three weeks out and pick the date cause there’s never a bad time to go out and do that. So there might never be a good time to do it, but there’s never a bad time to do it. It’s just one of those things that you absolutely have to do and when you get back, you’ll be so glad you did. So what we come out with from like a conference scenario for example, would be um, tons of encouragement, tons of alignment, the shared experience in the built relationships and people might not be able to measure that tangibly, but she can measure it in smiles, willingness to work together and collaboration. You come back and you’ve got ideas that immediately get assimilated in. In fact, our membership and assimilation process was a disaster because we never could agree on it under our previous leadership and now we didn’t have quote unquote leadership and whoever was in leadership might not be here in a year because we’ll hire different senior pastor. So what do you do with that? Well, it was so easy to go to Saddleback and see, here’s a system that works. Why aren’t we just doing that? And we brought that one on one track.

Mingo Palacios:

The track system 101, 201, 301.

Jason Schafer:

We literally reinserted that about a year ago and we’ve got membership happening where we literally weren’t bringing on new members because of it.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah, intentional pathway of membership.

Jason Schafer:

Totally. And so that was really helpful because it took us all hearing it together, realize how broken our system was. So doing that together was great. Going off on your own too, and meeting with people in similar roles at similar size churches for us out here in the desert, we’re kind of lone stars in that world. We have to go into Riverside County and Orange County and La county to start to get into some people with some churches with something to compare to. And that took a day. You’ve got to drive out and all that. And not to say we shouldn’t kick it with the other local dudes. I just had lunch with a bunch of worship pastors. Amazing guys. I learned a lot from that too. Um, but man, just make it a point. Burn the day eight is a hundred percent worth it because once you come back with is that golden goose idea that you just didn’t even know was there.

Mingo Palacios:

And perspective that you might only be like one or two degrees off of and then you hear somebody else talking about it or you see somebody else doing it and you’re like, that has been, that’s what’s been on the tip of my tongue that I have not been able to articulate.

Jason Schafer:

Or just embarrassing yourself in front of somebody and realizing, dang, I got a problem, so I got to work on like, ain’t nobody around here telling me anymore.

Mingo Palacios:

Both ways. Right? Mutually inspiring. Mutually just totally just a buffoon like buffoonery. That whole case is so good. Now, tell me what in this season, cause you guys, 18 months, no senior pastor you experienced, like you said, these crazy miracles where God is supernaturally holding your church up. Now you’ve got a senior pastor and he’s the new guy and now you’re the seasoned veteran inside this space. Give me a little bit of perspective on how you have now moved. You’ve made a pivot. The Lord has allowed you to pivot from, like you said, I loved it like a peon position, very little significance. Now you’re sitting in a sea of seniority and you bring in a senior pastor. Tell me what that’s like especially for our emerging leaders and some of our senior leaders who want to go, but this is the kid who came in in his mid twenties. What’s that been like?

Jason Schafer:

I’ll point to a scripture and it’s in proverbs and I can never remember the actual reference, but it says that humility comes before honor. I went into the situation knowing I wanted to honor that next man. His name is Ricky Jenkins and he started only two months ago. So we’re pretty fresh in that process, but it has definitely been one of those like humility, humility, humility. Because I can’t honor him if I don’t chase down that humility factor. And so the state of my heart has to be in check. I have to let go a whole lot of influence and power in order for him to have what is rightfully his, with his experience, with his expertise, with his role comes the need for him to have that place and I don’t belong there long-term. And so I’ve had to really be humble about that in order to honor that man. So I’ve kind of had a lot of great conversations leading up to that moment with some incredible people that I have in my life as a result of conferences, trips, mentor relationships and church relationship.

Mingo Palacios:

All the stuff that we talked about.

Jason Schafer:

Praise the Lord for that because I’d be a mess in this moment if not for those men keeping me in line. So that’s kind of the game I’m playing right now. And we’re so young into the process. I could just say I’m experiencing two things. One is growing pains. We’re growing faster than I’ve ever seen. Like 20 percent numerical growth from this period last year. And last year was a growth here last year. Being a growth here is a miracle in and of itself.

Mingo Palacios:

Absence of senior pastor. Yet the Lord is bringing people to the table because something’s happening. I believe in the brokenness is some of the greatest things come to the table until the grazing shine.

Jason Schafer:

Unbelievable. So that was like a, to put numbers on it as a four percent growth here at this point in time, we have been right around the 20 percent growth from the year prior to from a growth year to this year. We’re 20 percent bigger than that.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s exponential growth.

Jason Schafer:

I mean, it’s stupid growth. How do you account for that growth? How do you keep up with it? Like we’re literally scrambling to keep up with what God’s doing around us today.

Mingo Palacios:

It is so perfectly poised because you can go, there’s no personality that’s driving this growth. We don’t have a celebrity.

Jason Schafer:

It’s an act of God and him and his alone can do that. So I’m in this place of I feel like growing pains because of that like humbling process. And also I feel like a dog that just doubled in size in two months. You know, like a puppy that becomes a dog. I feel like a dog running into the kitchen table because I’m too tall to run underneath it anymore. We’re making dumb mistakes and bumping into stuff and not printing enough bulletins and there’s not enough chairs and just stupid things like that in the process. What I would say, if there’s an advice line here, it’s to say, make a great relationship off-stage with whoever that new guy is as soon as and as quick as you possibly can because it’s going to be that that gets you through bumping your head and going through growing pains.

Mingo Palacios:

So so valuable. Man. So rich. This conversation has so many applications for people who are new to a tumultuous environment for people who are on the brink of or in the middle of an exchange of upper leadership. People who are wrestling with whether or not they commit to something and you know, the payout that comes from a commitment and now thinking about the application on the mature end, you could not have written your story going in. But how interesting to think that when people look at you, they assume, man, I just want to be that guy. If I could just be the worship guy and sure it needs to be said. There are so many desert seasons and nights where you’re wondering if you are where you in fact should be questioning your own character. Probably people questioning your character and motive, peer tension, leadership, tension, congregational tension. People forget that there is a lot of bumps and bruises on the way to being ‘the guy’ the worship guy or the guy with all the influence or a majority of influence. It doesn’t just get handed to you. You endure seasons that afford you, that kind of trust and that kind of seniority.

Jason Schafer:

And then often you get it even though you didn’t deserve it. And that’s how I identify myself. I didn’t and I just kind of was still here.

Mingo Palacios:

I love that man. Tell me this, looking forward, what are the things that excite you about the season to come?

Jason Schafer:

I am excited to continue this process of showing honor, to catch up to what God’s up to. I’m excited about just the total undocumented future for this church. I think foundationally the health of our church through that season under Ray and Jack, we became the kind of people that were blessable. There was definitely a little bit of that.

Mingo Palacios:

Wow hear that. That’s a great statement.

Jason Schafer:

And you add to that a really intelligent and capable leader. I think you just finally put the right motor in a really great looking car and we can actually take this thing on a road trip. We can go race it. Yeah, there’s things we can do that we couldn’t previously do, but so much of it is undocumented. So I think what’s, when I’m looking forward to is the possibilities. But what Ricky has said coming in is he’s in a place to listen and to learn. And that’s what the Lord has led him to do in this first season of his tenure, which means we’re not changing a whole lot right away. A lot of people looking at us and we’re just kind of like getting to know each other, getting used to working together and then I think in the next year, so we’ll put the thing in gear and see what you can do. It’s going to be pretty cool.

Mingo Palacios:

So good. Thank you so much for the perspective. Thanks for helping us look through the lens of chaos with a little bit of maturity and clarity, right? That you can find God’s leading and God’s direction and support even though what you would describe as an ideal scenario is nowhere to be found and I honestly think that there’s more people in that boat, but they just won’t admit it. So I’m praying. This conversation just strikes at the core of so many listeners who are wondering, God, what are you doing right now? And I can’t describe it. I don’t necessarily even think I like it, but you have me here for a purpose. What would that purpose be? And what does it look like to honor you in this season? Jason, if people want to follow you, if they want to go alongside this journey, how can they do that?

Jason Schafer:

Yikes. I’m one of those Weirdos. I’m not on social media.

Mingo Palacios:

I love it.

Jason Schafer:

But you can check our church out at southwestchurch.com and our Instagram and Sacebook and all that is on that. My team’s on there, Pastor Ricky is on there. It’s a great place to visit in the spring and come and say hi.

Mingo Palacios:

What you’re saying is come find me in person. Cultivate that relationship.

Jason Schafer:

I love personal interchange. And that’s why this podcast studio is so incredible, I get to look you right in your eyes.

Mingo Palacios:

This is what it’s about. I would say we accomplished the goal which would be to kill conference FOMO, one great episode, one great conversation at a time. Thanks for sharing your heart and for the listeners who are listening in, worship leaders or just emerging leaders who are seasoned leaders. You cannot script the direction and the pathway by which you find yourself. But man, you can become a great submitter to God’s purpose inside of that season. So I’m hoping that that’s what people take away from this. Jason we appreciate you. Thank you so much. To our listeners will talk to you guys soon.

Mingo Palacios:

We’d like to think Purpose Driven Church for making this podcast possible. If you’ve been feeling burnt out or plateaued in your ministry, we invite you to join us for Purpose Driven Church conference happening this June right here in southern California. You can learn more and register by visiting pd.church. We hope today’s insights left you feeling inspired and propelled towards your greatest potential. Thanks again for joining us for another episode of the PD Podcast. Until next time.

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