lead pastor,
movement,
33m 45s

Episode 17: Pastoring Massive Vision, Executive Pastor Wisdom, and Mission

May 08, 2017

Episode 17: Pastoring Massive Vision, Executive Pastor Wisdom, and Mission

Mark is lead pastor at Village Church (www.thisisvillagechurch.com), John is the Executive Pastor, and they both share about the absolute musts when leading BIG vision.

EPISODE RESOURCES

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  1. www.thisisvillagechurch.com
  2. Instagram: @MarkAClark
  3. Twitter: @MarkAClark

Episode Quotable

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Episode 17 Transcript

Mingo Palacios:

Welcome to Touring for Purpose podcast. I am Mingo, your host.

Mark Clark:

What do you call it?

Mingo Palacios:

Touring for Purpose.

Mark Clark:

Oh, touring. I thought you said “chewing.” [laughs]

Mingo Palacios:

Welcome to Chewing for Purpose podcast. This conversation, like every other conversation we have on the podcast, is really about giving insight to emerging leaders within the organization that are listening for insights on how to be better communicators and better relationally connected to the generation ahead of them. We want to be generation reconciliators. Is that a fair word?

Mark Clark:

Wow, that is a big – yeah.

Mingo Palacios:

We’re trying to accomplish that in this little device right here pumping out to the internet. Mark Clark:, you and I talked about a month ago in Palm Desert, and I just loved our conversation because you basically told me you wanted to light all of Canada on fire. You want the entire population of Canada to know Jesus, in a nutshell.

Mark Clark:

The whole population of Canada is basically the population of the state of California. So when we started the church seven or eight years ago, when 16 of us were sitting around in my townhouse, we said, what would it look like to not just start a church – which of course we want to do, and that local impact is massive and important – but what does it look like to take that and say, what if we could affect the nation in some way?

What if we could plant churches in really strategic city centers across Canada – Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa – where we could plant Gospel-centered churches that could affect those areas, and we’d actually be able to maybe make an impact across Canada. It’s a very unique situation, 35 million people all crammed into, the majority of them, along the border. So you have an opportunity.

Mingo Palacios:

It’s tangible. You can imagine it.

Mark Clark:

You can literally imagine affecting the nation in some way, whereas for you guys that’d be a bigger ordeal.

Mingo Palacios:

I think coast to coast – I know probably there are some pastors that saw it or see it and they’re trying to figure it – Brian Houston’s like, “I’m going for the globe.” But you see Canada, and you can shoot the borderline and go “I think we can do this as a church,” right?

Mark Clark:

At least shoot for it. That’s part of the thing, is the risk. I was talking to one of the sessions today; if you know that your identity is in the Gospel already, and you’re beloved, and “in you I am well pleased,” all of that –

Mingo Palacios:

I feel beloved right now.

Mark Clark:

“In you I am well pleased,” before Jesus has even done anything yet, at his baptism. Then we can take risks, and some of them will fail and some of them will succeed. If the failures happen, that’s okay because we know it’s not our identity at stake. We’re taking risks for the sake of the Kingdom.

Mingo Palacios:

That’s super good. You talked about the movement, shepherding a movement. Give me just a paragraph on your thoughts on that. I know a lot of people my age – how old are you?

Mark Clark:

Thirty-six.

Mingo Palacios:

You’re 36? I’m 34, so we’re kind of in the same – I was born in ’82, you were born in ’80, period. Millennial. You’re at the millennial bump, dude.

Mark Clark:

Yes, right.

Mingo Palacios:

And the in-betweeners, we don’t know who they are or what age. And then we have all the Xers, and they say Xers are the forgotten generation. Poor guys. Then Boomers. John, what category do you fall into?

John Broadhead:

Boomer. Just on the edge of it. Born in ’63.

Mingo Palacios:

Okay, awesome.

John Broadhead:

So whatever I am, 54, 53 right now.

Mingo Palacios:

[laughs] Don’t ask, I won’t tell. Here’s what I want to know: as a millennial – I’m going to lump you into that one, or maybe a ’tweener. That’s a terrible name. But there are lofty ambitions in our generation. We think we can – well, we did.

We looked at transportation and said “I think we can change this.” Boom, Uber is born. We were like, “Uh, I don’t want to go to Blockbuster and sort through VHS videos and then be disappointed that it’s not behind the cover. We’ll make Netflix.” Grocery stores, Amazon, name your vehicle – basically the millennial generation, on the backs of Gen X, have really disrupted a lot in our world. Culturally.

And then we’ve got the church. How are you seeing, with the kind of vision that God has put in your hands – people are looking at you and going, “dude, that’s impossible,” right? Are you hearing that? Are you not hearing that?

Mark Clark:

I don’t hear that it’s impossible. One of the things I think our generation is – and of course, nothing’s new under the sun, so other people are doing this, too – but trying to put the responsibility and the authority back into the hands of the church.

Yes, leaders are great, pastors are great, but what I’m excited about is you look at movements throughout history, the fastest-moving, greatest movement in the history of the world is happening right now, and it’s in China. The Gospel is moving faster in China than it’s ever moved in the history of the planet, right now as we’re sitting here. What is that situation? It’s basically almost illegal.

We have created this professional leader, professional pastor, “be my guru,” “be my whatever.”

Mingo Palacios:

Pathways, yeah. Development processes.

Mark Clark:

What you see is the movements that have impact are the ones where the church takes back the responsibility, Jesus kicks the keys back and goes “You take it! What you bind on Earth will be bound in heaven, what you loose on Erath will be loosed in heaven. Go be the church.”

That’s what I get excited about. Yes, we can try to do our best to organize, to inspire, to give structure, to make sure the Gospel and community and culture are central. We can do those things, which are the three values that we look at, but it’s the church going and being soccer moms and business owners and entrepreneurs and doctors and lawyers – that’s going to be the change.

Mingo Palacios:

Jesus in you, lit up where you are.

Mark Clark:

That’s the only way the movement is actually ever going to work. That’s why you look at China – when Mao took over and it became illegal in the ’40s, and then the bamboo curtain raises in the ’70s, they had kicked out all the missionaries. There was basically two million Christians, they thought, when Mao took over. They kicked everybody out, nationalized all the buildings, killed all the lead pastors, persecuted second and third tier.

So they thought when they went back in the ’70s there would be no Christians. There were 60 to 80 million Christians there, because the church took the authority back, took the responsibility. That’s what I want to see happen.

Mingo Palacios:

As the pastor carrying that vision to pastor the movement, I sense that that keeps you up at night. “How are we going to go there? Lord Jesus, give me the vision, give me the vision, give me the vision.”

John, the executive pastor in this relationship – this is a relationship – how do you manage the pastor who’s on his knees, asking for the vision? Part of the tension I assume a lot of people wrestle with is “please don’t hold me back” or “please help me figure out how to navigate this; this is too wild for me to deal with on my own.”

If I’m speaking on my own behalf and I don’t have the platform you have as a senior pastor, but I’ve got this crazy vision that we can tell stories that need to be told everywhere, but I need help because I can only brain it so much, and I can be on my phone and I can elevate some people, but a guy like you comes into the mix and it goes farther, faster, smoother – how do you operate inside of this mechanism, inside of this organism that we call Village Church?

John Broadhead:

That’s a great question. It really starts with trust, loyalty, chemistry, on the same page, and knowing where our gift sets are, where our abilities are. Mark’s visionary, apostolic, new ideas constantly. That’s what drove me. You talk about the previous generation not having as much vision – I had it; it’s just the church didn’t inspire me. I went to church, but no church had a big enough vision. I was in the corporate world.

So coming on here is like, okay, whoa! This is something I can get into. This is something we can chew. Finally someone’s thinking the same way as we do in the corporate world, like taking over. In some cases with products, in this case with the best message in the world. In history.

In working with Mark, it’s knowing that I’m not number one, I’m not the voice, but I’m the person that can fill in, not all, but a lot of the blanks that Mark doesn’t have. We talk about it as “the beast” in the sense that you don’t want to tame it. That’ll ruin it. It’s finding a way to work with all the ideas, and no idea is a bad idea. For at least a minute. [laughs]

Mingo Palacios:

Dude, here, take my microphone.

Mark Clark:

John’s great at that, because there’s days when I come in and it’s like, okay, an idea hit me, and what’s great about him and his role – it’s never a “no, that’s dumb.” It’s like, “okay, let’s chase that down.” We were just talking about this on the way here. Just this sense of let’s tease it out, see if it could actually work. If we built the right systems around that, this could actually – rarely is he like “that’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard.”

He came into the whole thing with a vision of wanting to do something big, like he said, so he was there right from the beginning. Even the whole vision was very much shared, and that relationship was unique.

Mingo Palacios:

You guys launched together.

Mark Clark:

Yeah, we launched together. He was part of the 16 people who were sent out from our church that gathered in our townhouse and went, “What would we want to plant?” John and I would sit and have lunch and go, “What if this, what if that?”

Mingo Palacios:

I remember you saying in our first conversation, you can’t come to the table and say “Hey, I want to start a church, I want to start Village in my neighborhood” and then they say “Who are you going to do it with?” and you’re like “Here’s my 16-year-old friend, here’s my 19-year-old friend.” You’ve got to have Johns in your corner.

John Broadhead:

A hundred percent.

Mark Clark:

Totally. A lot of planters go out and try to do the “hey, everyone’s 22,” and they have no money, they just want to be on stage – and rightfully so. There’s this life state. They’ve got a girlfriend, they go to school, whatever.

I inspire them to have a John and his wife. Have someone who’s got a good career, got stability, has proven himself, has money, that kind of stuff. They can actually help support and drive this thing with you. We had a 65-year-old couple in our group, another 45-year-old couple. That’s the kind of group you want to try to get in a church plant scenario, and then the DNA, the chemistry is just there.

Mingo Palacios:

John, you were going to say something. What were you going to say?

John Broadhead:

Wow, I can’t remember now.

Mark Clark:

[laughs] Probably something about DNA and chemistry that I just took.

John Broadhead:

Yeah, exactly what he said. It’s just knowing that there’s loyalty, that you work out your stuff together on your own, but out in front of staff, in front of everyone, you are absolutely on the same page in every way.

Mingo Palacios:

You’re unified to death.

John Broadhead:

That’s not an unknown. That’s true all over. We know that. But it has to be real. It can’t be manufactured. In this case, it’s not something you’re going to hire out. It’s based on relationship to start. So if you’re a church planter, it’s knowing who’s that person that is filling in the other pieces that you don’t have.

Mingo Palacios:

I have a question for you. How is it that you guys work out tension? If I was in your position in reverse, where I was right behind John and there was a senior pastor, and we had a tension between us because I really sought after a version of a calling, like Mark – how do you guys solve that kind of tension as you’re raising young leaders inside of your organization? There’s something probably you do that looks very different than something you do, but you’re both pushing towards the same thing. How do you farm or crop or how do you cultivate the next generation of leaders inside of your own organization?

Mark Clark:

It’s a bit of a tension because we’re so young. Being seven years in, we’ve played a lot of catchup. We don’t have those perfect structures in place.

Mingo Palacios:

But nonetheless, they don’t have to be hired. They could just be hanging, and they’re like “We would love to know how you’re doing what you’re doing, Mark. Show me how. You’re in that lane. People are like, “John, do I have to circumvent you? Do I go through you?” That’s what I want to know. Because there’s a lot of kids who watch – whoa, what’s up, audience? They just showed up out of nowhere.

There’s a lot of people who are wondering, Mark, I want to hear the vision, like when Jesus hits you and you’re like “We’re going across Canada, west to east.” And John, you’re like “I want to support that, but then I’ve got to mediate all these guys who are watching and wondering, how do I get some time with that?” How are you guys managing that? Because there’s an expectation calibration that needs to happen for kids like me.

Mark Clark:

I think it’s not only that, but it’s even – our staff is the best staff on the planet. They get the vision, they bleed for the vision. Most of them are hired like John. Hey, you’re out there working at this company? Come here. Hey, you’re a teacher? Come here. Hey, you do this? Come here. They’re not a ton of ministry people. They haven’t been sitting in church life. Some of them are, and they’re great. A lot are from the marketplace or whatever.

They’re amazing, amazing people, and they’re in their zone, and they’re specialists in many cases. The tension we come up with is, when we’re in whiteboard mode, is that just a mode that we need to stay in until it gets fleshed out and bring in a few people and brainstorm? Kind of like a brain trust Pixar deal. And then when is it that we bring that down, at what level? They’re in the zone, they’re doing their thing in an amazing way – is this going to sideline them? For an idea that possibly is never going to actually happen?

Mingo Palacios:

Your tension is, “do we release it?”

Mark Clark:

We get sidelined for two months on something that’s never going to happen, yeah. It’s a tension. We never know what to do, because of course they want to be a part of it and say maybe we can speak into it and maybe we have something to say, and it’s 100%, but we don’t want to distract you because we just tried six things and we’re only doing one of them. That’s a constant tension, I think. You’ve tried to manage that well.

John Broadhead:

Yeah. Basic principles from even the sales industry, where you don’t tell your sales team the new products that are coming because it’ll derail them on what they currently have. Deal with what you have now; don’t start thinking about what you’re going to sell next year because this is all we’ve got.

Some people can handle it. It really depends on the person as to whether/what you share, how much you share. We find people that are typically better don’t come out of a long church background. We have some great people that have come out of a church background.

Mingo Palacios:

When you say better, can you try to qualify “better”? I want to wrap a definition around it.

John Broadhead:

We hire great people, so we don’t run into this, but we see it all the time where generally, church people have a poor work ethic. Lazy, sometimes.

Mingo Palacios:

Wow, okay.

Mark Clark:

[laughs] Hold on. Just let me categorize. You’ll work with people in ministry or you’ll work with church planters and the vibe is “hey, I came in at 10:00 and I’m picking my kid up from school at 2:00.” It’s like dude, you had a four hour day. That’s not the Apostle Paul in 2 Timothy 2 saying athlete, farmer, soldier, up before everybody, muscle-y, working it, hitting the farm. You need to be working all the time, tirelessly. This is not a lazy ministry job where you just come in and out and you’re half-engaged.

We push against that and we say that DNA will not work at Village very long. That’s going to end poorly.

Mingo Palacios:

You’re kind of speaking against the whole lifestyle brand people. You know what I’m talking about? [laughs]

Mark Clark:

We’re not trying to drum up, hey, what cool thing can we get into the office that will make people stay? Let’s give them all these workout…

Mingo Palacios:

You’re saying there’s work that needs to be done and we need to do the work.

John Broadhead:

Yeah. We’re really stringent on make sure you take a vacation. Like, rest. Take time off. Take a break. Be healthy. But when you’re in, you’re in. You’re all-in. Don’t mess around. No sloughing off.

Mark Clark:

What did you call it? Sloughing?

Mingo Palacios:

Sloughing off. Don’t slough off. I don’t know, that could be a bad word.

For executive pastors, I want to give a special word to them as we talk, and I want to give a word to emerging leaders from the posture of a Boomer. We don’t have a lot of Boomers on our podcast, so your posture matters in this conversation. What’s something that we can do that will help the entire organization move forward, the whole vision move forward?

I think a lot of times we come up with the answers in our minds. We don’t even ask whether or not this is going to help, and we just try to execute and then go “Hey, we’re doing something over here! How come you’re not validating it?” It sometimes works against the org. Sometimes you’re like, hey bro, it’s vision, one. Not division, not two visions going in different directions. How, as a seasoned leader, would you coach emerging leaders to help be the best versions of themselves?

John Broadhead:

Tap into the seasoned leaders, the people that do know about best practices of management, of best ways to do things. I teach our staff this thing called – it’s not a course, but the talk about the economics of ministry. That stuff costs money. It’s just part of…

Mingo Palacios:

Basic stewardship responsibility.

John Broadhead:

Yeah, but beyond that, where you add up this plus this, we’re spending this amount on this per youth, per kid, per adult, per whatever. Is that a good use? That kind of economy. I don’t at all want to be known as the bean counter, because that shouldn’t limit what you do, but it certainly plays into.

So tap into people around you that are seasoned. They’re not broadly seasoned across every ministry, but maybe there’s a financial thing, maybe there’s a management piece, maybe there’s a mentoring piece. Don’t ignore it. There’s knowledge there that applies. It’s not a Christian thing versus secular thing. There’s just good ideas.

Mingo Palacios:

It’s a human thing.

John Broadhead:

It’s a human thing. We call it Judeo-Christian ethic, whatever you want to call it. It’s biblically – God created our brains, so there is a spiritual aspect. A good idea is from Him. It’s not because the business world does it; it’s because it’s a good idea.

Mark Clark:

Wouldn’t you agree, John, too, the way your generation would respect our generation is you have to show them maturity? You have to show that you’re not just going all over the map, where you’ve got new crazy ideas every time you turn around and you can’t actually execute and they’re not well thought through?

I see a lot of young leaders out there, and when we raise the question of why haven’t you been able to gather these 40-somethings, 50-somethings, 60-somethings at your church plant stage – it might be a young church, even, or an older church that they come into – part of it is you don’t even think strategically. You don’t have the maturity level to gain their respect.

Mingo Palacios:

You can’t even piece together your thoughts, let alone present them to somebody who could help shape them.

Mark Clark:

Yeah. And show a plan. If you’re sitting on a board of Boomers or whatever and they’re like “Hey, young pastor, why don’t you show us a strategy plan?” and you’re like “Strategy? I’m a prophet!” or whatever – it’s like, okay dude, you’re going to lose everybody.

Mingo Palacios:

Have fun being a prophet to the four people that you can coax to come in with coffee. [laughs]

The idea of supporting a vision that’s yet to be attained, but you guys have it on the map and you’re relentless about it. I don’t doubt you’re going to go all the way across Canada. It’s just a matter of when. That’s the way I think. Because you’re going to be relentless about how, so it’s just a matter of when.

What do you tell somebody who is the visionary, who is in the process right where you are? You guys are trying to figure it out. What are some of the promises or some of the good words, what are some of the wisdom pieces that you have been holding onto as of recently that keep you going? That’s the question I’m going to ask.

Mark Clark:

I think any time you want to try to have impact or influence in any way, there’s this constant conversation in your brain, especially in the Christian community. It’s like, is this wrong? Shouldn’t you just be local? Is it wrong to want to have this kind of impact? There’s some of that tension. Is there something we need to be shy about?

Just trying to find that balance of a Spirit-led vision and humility, and to go – we don’t know the outcome. This latest idea could die. These ideas that we’re going to launch, it could all fail. We could be sitting here next Thrive and we’ll be like “So, that all was crap. Now what are you doing?”

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah, but it’s just a matter of how, right? [laughs]

Mark Clark:

That could all happen. We know that. But all we’re going to do is be faithful, to say we’re going to take the next step. When you talk to people to come on staff at your church, oftentimes they go “You know what? I was doing my job, and all I heard from God was ‘Apply. Just take the next step.’ It might die, but He just told me to take whatever the next step was. I don’t know what the result is, I don’t know what the outcome is going to be, but I said I’m going to come in for an interview, so that’s what I did.”

That’s all we’re doing. Next step, next step. No promise. God hasn’t gone “100%, I’m giving you every promise.”

Mingo Palacios:

And when did He ever unpack it all the way? Your brain would melt. That’s what I love about the conversation we were having yesterday about just celebrating the fact when people say “yes” to the call, whatever that is. It could be an utter failure on the other side, and certainly there are plenty of biblical examples where it was a call to failure, in at least human eyes, and God was like “I just needed to know if you would move. That was it.”

Mark Clark:

That’s what we’re trying to steward. We have an urgency. We share an urgency to say, every day, people are dying and going to hell. That’s what drives us every single day we wake up. We’ll do risks, we’ll do whatever we can. There’s an urgency about what we want to do, because we want to do the most with the 15 minutes we’ve got.

Mingo Palacios:

Amen.

Mark Clark:

So what’s what we’re trying to do.

Mingo Palacios:

I love that. Closing question, one for each of you guys. John, we’re going to start with you.

John, from your posture as an executive pastor at one of the fastest-moving churches – it’s fastest-growing, but you guys are a movement. You’ve been preaching about movement all day today. So being a movement pastor at an executive level, what do I need to make sure I’m keeping in check as an emerging leader if I’m chasing a movement-sized vision from God?

John Broadhead:

The obvious one is knowing that it’s from God and it’s not your own wishes.

Mingo Palacios:

Man, you say it’s obvious, but that’s probably going to check a lot of people.

John Broadhead:

Yeah. Is it a dream you have because you had it, your dad, your grandfather, your wife? Is it something that’s driving you from the flesh? That’s hard. You’ve got to work that out. It’s a real thing, because it won’t go anywhere. It’ll be built on you and it’ll crumble. So make sure the vision, the drive is coming from the Lord, first and foremost, 100%.

Beyond that, then it’s getting the right team around you. That gets into culture, because you can’t do it yourself. Obviously God’s at the top, you’re there, but you’re going to be missing a whole bunch of things around you. You need other people to come around you. That gets into values and culture and some of those things.

And culture is you, the leader. That’s what drives it. If you’re not praying, if you’re not taking time with the Lord, if you’re not inviting people to church – how many pastors out there don’t have any non-Christian friends anymore? You’re starting a movement and you don’t know anyone who isn’t a Christian. [chuckles]

Mingo Palacios:

That’s a slow movement. [laughs]

John Broadhead:

So it’s those culture values. Live it. The leader drives everything that that movement is going to embody.

Mingo Palacios:

They say the speed of the organization is only ever based on the speed of the leader. Nobody’s going to throttle up or down the organization besides the leader. It’s the responsibility and the burden of the leader to accurately pace the organization according to everyone’s ability to track with it.

Well thank you, Mark. I appreciate that. [laughs]

Mark Clark:

I will interview you next.

Mingo Palacios:

Mark, tell me what you see, as a visionary – and I love this because you and I are not far off in age, and I have lofty dreams for the church.

Mark Clark:

I hate how you keep calling me a visionary, by the way.

Mingo Palacios:

You are, dude! You are a visionary to me.

Mark Clark:

We have ideas. I have ideas.

Mingo Palacios:

We have ideas. Some call it vision, some call it pipe dreams, but regardless, I go to sleep at night, I dream of something, I wake up and I’m like “Oh my gosh, Jesus, is that something you want? Are we going to see that in my lifetime?”

As somebody who is recklessly, or maybe not recklessly, chasing their dreams, what do we need to watch out for? What’s your commission to your peers? And then maybe could you give us a word for the rest of the executive pastors out there with all these squirrelly dreamers running inside of their organizations and them having to deal with that.

Mark Clark:

The first thing I would say is we talk about movement and that kind of stuff. Where I even get that, or where we should get that idea, isn’t from some kind of lofty ideals. Alan Hirsch, in one of his books, says “don’t think church; think mission.”

Here’s the thing. If you start out by not immediately thinking, let me think about ecclesiology first, but missiology. Let me not –

Mingo Palacios:

Whoa, bro. I’ve got some kids who watch this podcast, bro. Come on, dude. Seriously, dude. [laughs]

Mark Clark:

Sorry, sorry. [laughs]

Mingo Palacios:

One more time. We’re going to hit the rewind button right now. [laughs] Dude.

Mark Clark:

Okay. Instead of primarily going, “how do I govern or structure a local church?” first, instead of thinking church all the time, start out by thinking mission, which is “how do I reach people?” Then you start understanding that. That’s everything we’re talking about, about movement. It’s about mission. When we’re thinking and praying and talking, our question is about the missiology. How are we going to accomplish the mission? Then we work backwards and we go, okay, we’ve got to structure this thing. We’ve got to make sure there’s some leaders in place.

That’s the priority for us, and I think should be the priority for the up-and-coming leaders, thinkers. “Okay, I’ve got to think mission.” Think like a missionary. Whether you’re reading Newbigin saying “Hey, here I was, a 30-year missionary in India” – look, you go into India and you say “Who wants to be born again?” and everyone’s like “Already have been, 35 times.” Newbigin’s going, “I can’t say that.”

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah, you don’t have to go all the way to India for that. You can just go to summer camp, bro. They’re like, “I’ve been four years, I got saved four times!”

Mark Clark:

It’s true. So you have to think like a missionary at all times. What does that look like in your culture? And then start working back to, whether that’s a church plant scenario or pastoring or whether that’s a parent church thing. But make the mission the priority. The church is the vehicle that God uses to accomplish the mission. That’s the issue.

Mingo Palacios:

That was solid. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard it articulated that way. Such a visionary. [laughs]

Mark Clark:

[laughs] All right, knock it off. Enough of that.

John Broadhead:

He’s just repeating what the Bibles says.

Mingo Palacios:

Yeah, thank you for keeping us in order, John, seriously.

For the relationship between 30-somethings and the potential ceiling they feel like they’re crashing into in the Boomer executive pastor, what’s your word for that?

Mark Clark:

Like anything in life, you have to – go back and read Dale Carnegie, How to Win Friends and Influence People. If you don’t build a relationship first so the person buys into you, and there’s not a loyalty and a relationship and an understanding, you’re never going to get anything passed. You have to strategically build a relationship of trust. Trust is the foundation for any relationship. If you’re looking at it like “he doesn’t understand me” or whatever, we all think we’re snowflakes and unique and all this stuff – it’s garbage.

Mingo Palacios:

Look at me. [laughs]

Mark Clark:

They’re smarter than you think they are. It’s like when you look at grandparents. You sit down with them and you’re like “What, the war? You’ve already been through everything that I’ve been through!” It’s really understanding and using that.

When we started our church and we started reaching entrepreneurs and 30-somethings and 40-somethings, I’m up there, 29 years old in a hoodie. Here’s what you’ve got to understand. Then they see John – who wasn’t even working at the church at the time; he was just still my partner – and they’re like “Okay, this might actually be legit. Our money’s going somewhere. Because it’s not going with him.” So someone knows what they’re doing.

You’ve got to use that. And, yes, do the prophetic thing and do the reckless thing, but people don’t want reckless with some things. [laughs]

Mingo Palacios:

They want their children to be in something secure.

Mark Clark:

Yes, exactly. Being able to use that and partner in that and leverage it is strategic. It’s smart.

Mingo Palacios:

Necessary.

Mark Clark:

Yeah, necessary. And there’s wisdom and life. He raised two daughters that love Jesus and love the church. I’ve got three daughters; I want them to love Jesus and love the church. That’s my top priority. I’m going to learn a lot from him, say “Hey, what did you do with this? What did you do with that?” You’ve got to be constantly looking up.

Mingo Palacios:

Mark, I appreciate your time. John, I really appreciate your insight. Thanks for being maybe one of three Boomers ever on the podcast. I think that we need more of your conversations. We need your conversation.

Mark Clark:

I’ll show you how to subscribe to this podcast later, John. [laughs] On your Braille iPhone.

Mingo Palacios:

Oh my gosh. [laughs] That’s cold, bro. You’re cold as ice, dude.

Thank you to Bayside and to Thrive Conference, who had us out. Dude, even though I didn’t go listen to you, you were really good. [laughs] I’m trying to shovel you a compliment right now, dude. You’re on the docket, which means that what God is doing through your church is cool.

Mark Clark:

It’s great to be asked, yeah.

Mingo Palacios:

I think that’s awesome.

Mark Clark:

Thanks for having us.

Mingo Palacios:

One day I want to be a visionary like Mark. To Purpose Driven Church and to the team here, thank you guys for having us. Mark, I just love your guys’ chemistry. I’m praying that this inspires some people who are weeding through the frustration. Hear this chemistry and chase after it.

I love that it was trust that was the overarching theme here. It was extending and communicating and being vulnerable and saying, “Hey, this is what’s on my heart,” “Hey, this is what’s on my heart. Let’s put these two things together.” Nobody disqualified the other person because of their birth year. That was so massive. I’m walking away with a ton of stuff.

Thank you for tuning in. We love you guys. We’ll see you guys soon.

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